#12 Ibn ʿArabī and the Metaphysics of Love with Dr Hany Ibrahim

Podcast Summary, Transcript and Accompanying Material

Dr Hany Talaat Ibrahim, author of Love in the Teachings of Ibn ʿArabī and professor at the University of Calgary and Mount Royal University Canada, walks us into the world of Ibn al-ʿArabī and the Metaphysics of Love in face of some Islamic scholars’ criticism of the great saint. Acknowledging that such criticism might scare off seekers, like it initially did for Dr Hany, this conversation is significantly pertinent to our times....

Specializing in pre modern Islāmic thought, Arabic Ṣūfī literature and Islāmic art and architecture, Dr Hany speaks to all spiritual seekers in a language that is clarifying and comprehensive. He addresses, perhaps, many of us, at different stages on our journey—cautious in our spiritual undertaking—to open the ears and eyes of our hearts. Although not explicitly mentioned as such, this interview is highly relevant to persons coming from a traditional Islāmic schooling and upbringing, underpinned by a limited understanding of what Ṣūfism, the mystical dimension of Islām, is.

In context, Dr Hany emphasizes the station of Ibn al-ʿArabī, a ‘ārif bil’Lāh (عارف بالله), gnostic, and an ʾimām (إمام), spiritual leader, for all times. He says, the knowledge conveyed to us through him was received directly from God. He reached al-’ijtihād al-muṭlaq (الاجتهاد المطلق) and discerned fiqh (فقه), jurisprudence. We are advised to take heed of this. To receive our understanding of spiritual openings according to the teachings of Ibn al-ʿArabī, and not the opposite.

Dr Hany extends a gnostic’s gentle embrace, inviting the wayfarer, hesitant or not, to sharpen understanding in three dimensions of Islām: expanding on what it means to fulfill the obligations of submission—ʾislām (إسلام), the obligations of faith—ʾīmān (إمان) and the obligations of spiritual excellence—ʾiḥsān (إحسان) in light of exerting personal effort, juhd (جهد), and the process of purifying the soul, an-nafs (النفس), in order to attain the level of witnessing to the Oneness of Being. Meaning is reinforced through Qur’ānic passages, marrying the three distinct but intertwined stages of spiritual development to the declaration of unity, tawḥīd (توحيد), with a discernible Qur’ānic definition of the two paths to God: those who are chosen, al-mujtabūn (المجتبون), and those who are guided to repent and seek Him, al-munībūn (المنيبون).

Witnessing, the backbone of unification, is talked about as an oxymoron; witnessing behind a veil, the ḥijāb (حجاب); annihilation, fanā’ (فناء); and, what it means when gnostics speak about Oneness, that is, God who witnesses God through the Muḥammadan Light—Nūr Muḥammad (نور محمد).

Dr Hany elaborates on the subject of incarnation and Ibn al-ʿArabī’s position on the importance of strictly adhering to the sharīʿa (شريعة). Other concepts and frameworks discussed include the absence of a lineage in the Akbarian heritage; the role of a living shaykh (شيخ); the relationship between the Ṣūfi order, at-ṭarīqa (الطريقه), the educational litany, wird at-tarbiyya (ورد التربيه), and the disciple’s progression, the murīd (مريد) that is, toward the witnessing of God and an affirmation of Creator and creation.

Furthermore, we explore the three stages of fanā’ together as elucidated in the story of Mūsa (Moses, موسى) and al-Khidr (the Green man, الخضر) ‘alayhim as-salām in the Holy Qur’ān. Firstly, there’s annihilation in action, al-fanā’ fīl af‘āl (الفناء في الافعال); secondly, annihilation in attributes, al-fanā’ fīl ṣifāt (الفناء في الصفات); and thirdly, annihilation in the essence, al-fanā’ fīl dhāt (الفناء في الذات). His shared words of wisdom remind us: “If you are God fearing, if you are pious, God Himself will teach you.”

In closing, we are reminded of the richness and multifaceted nature of the Arabic language. Etymological roots gather with both negative and positive connotation to birth different meanings. All strings come together to weave an exquisite tapestry rooted in the seeds of love. Indeed, one of the meanings of the Arabic word for love, ḥubb (حب), means seed; and the root of kufr (كفر) is to cover—as in, veil. Dr Hany concisely wraps up the underlying meaning that Ṣūfism as a path to God embodies: “This is the path on reaching annihilation and witnessing God; it is not you, it is only Him.”

Supplimentary Resources

Transcript:

Ibn al-ʿArabī and the Metaphysics of Love with Dr Hany Ibrahim

SPEAKERS
Host: Saqib Safdar
Guest: Dr Hany Ibrahim

Saqib
السلام عليكم (as-salāmu ʿalaykum), welcome, greetings everyone. My name is Saqib Safdar, founder and director of The Ḥikmah Project (Podcast) and it's a pleasure to welcome you to another episode. Today, we will be talking to Dr Hany Ibrahim on the metaphysics of love.

Before I tell you more about that, just a few reminders, we are currently beginning a journaling circle on the Secrets of Divine Love by A. Helwa and إن شاء الله (ʾinshāʾl-lāh) Dr Hany Ibrahim will also be joining us for a ṣoḥbat (per. صحبت ar. صُحْبَة) in one of those sessions. There's more details on the website.

Do remember, all the podcasts are free. So if you click on subscribe on the website, we've got various podcasting platforms, which you can use to listen to the podcasts. We also have social media links where you can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter; and, I'm also pleased to announce ʾinshāʾl-lāh we'll be running a course on reading chapter 178 of الفتوحات المكية (Futūḥāt al-Makkīyah) of ابن عربي (Ibn al-ʿArabī) with Dr Hany, in which we'll do a line by line translation and analysis of his thought.

So, quite a few things are in the pipeline and as always, your support is always welcome. So you can be a member and get access to the transcript and any other resources on the site.

Right, so Dr Hany Ibrahim is a gnostic. Firstly, I really enjoyed the ṣoḥbat or the discussion with him. So Dr Hany Talaat Ibrahim completed his PhD in religious studies at the University of Calgary. He is teaching at the University of Calgary and Mount Royal University Canada. He specializes in pre modern Islāmic thought: Arabic Ṣūfī literature and Islāmic art and architecture. He's recently published a book on Ibn al-ʿArabī entitled Love in the Teachings of Ibn al-ʿArabī.

In this episode, we start by exploring what drew him to Ibn al-ʿArabī, how one should approach Ibn al-ʿArabī, what any prerequisites may be, and also what the perspective, the Akbarian perspective is, on love law and the generic sort of framework.

So without further ado, here's the podcast.

As-salāmu ʿalaykum Sidi Ibrahim.

Dr Hany
وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله )wa-ʿalaykum as-salām wa-raḥmatul-lāh).

Saqib
It's wonderful to have you with us today on the Ḥikmah Project Podcast.

Dr Hany
Thank you very much for inviting me.

Saqib
Thank you. So can you just begin by telling us a bit about your background and how you got interested in Ibn al-ʿArabī; how you found out and what the opening was with him.

Dr Hany
Okay. I started and began reading on Ṣūfism, I was watching the TV in Egypt, back in 1986 or 87, and they were discussing the Epistle of ʾImām al-Qushayrī الإمام القشيري) أبو الحسين القشيري، ; abū al-Ḥusayn al-Qushayrī). So I got really interested in it and it was the first book which I bought on Ṣūfism and I began reading it and prior to that I had, my grandmother had recently passed away, and I had some spiritual experiences. And when I began reading the Epistle ofʾImām al-Qushayrī many meanings, which had occurred to me during that spiritual experience after the passing of my grandmother, I began relating and understanding the themes and terms and experiences which were mentioned in theالرسالة القشيري (al-risālah al-Qushayrī); and then I began reading on Ṣūfism and especially the books of الإمام الغزالي (ʾImām al-Ghazālī).

Of course, I've been reading about what ابن تيمية (Ibn Taymiyyah) and other scholars have been criticizing and writing aboutشيخ محي الدين (Shaykh Muḥyiddīn) and I, honestly I was afraid to approach him, but when I finished my studies in England in 1992, I finished my master's degree in Islāmic architecture, I returned to Egypt and I was doing some renovations in الجامع الأزهر (al-’Azhar Mosque) as an architect and passing in al-’Azhar district there was a publisher known as the الجندي (al-Gindī publishers, دار الجندي للنشر والتوزيع) who had some small رسائل (rasāʾil) or epistles written by Shaykh Muḥyiddīn. So, I began collecting them with a bit of caution as you know what has been said about Shaykh Muḥyiddīn. And what made me interested in the shaykh, I read a book by الشيخ عبد الحليم محمود (Shaykh 'Abd al-Halīm Mahmūd), Shaykh of al-’Azhar, in his book on الشيخ ابو مدين الغوث )Shaykh Abu-Madyan al-Ghawth(, he wrote a biography on the Shaykh Abu-Madyan al-Ghawth and in it he mentioned a couple of things on Sidi Muḥyiddīn. So I said, “No, honestly, this could not be a heretic,” [Laughs] “It’s something else.”

So I began reading these small epistles and I got interested in Shaykh Muḥyiddīn in 1992, this was the beginning and the more I read into him and with the spiritual experiences that I had, I began relating and understanding. As they say, Shaykh Muḥyiddīn, the شيوخ (shuyoukh) give spiritual education to the مريد (murīds); يعني، الشيوخ تربي المريدين (ya’ni al-shuyoukh torabī al-murīdīn), the spiritual seekers, but the Shaykh Muḥyiddīnيربي العارفين (yorabī al-‘ārifīn); he’s a shaykh of the عارفون بالله (‘ārifūna bil’Lāh), he is a shaykh of the gnostics.

So, a person cannot just open a book by Sidi Muḥyiddīn Ibn al-ʿArabī and say, ‘Oh yeah,’—he understands; you have to experience on the spiritual path, particular openings, and when you read in the writings of Shaykh Ibn al-ʿArabī you can relate and understand so he explains the spiritual experiences if a person does not have a live shaykh, a live shaykh.

Also, Sidi Muḥyiddīn said, "من لم يشرب مشربنه" —man lam yashrab mashrabnahu, has not tasted what we’ve tasted—""تحرم عليه قراه كتبنا—tuḥarram ‘alayhi qirā’ata kutubinā, it is forbidden for that person to read our books because as the shuyoukh said, people might misunderstand what he is trying to say, and this happened to Ibn Taymiyyah when he criticized Sidi Muḥyiddīn. He says, ‘People who say or believe in the Oneness of Being (are) people who are heretics because they do not differentiate between the Creator and the creation.’ Shaykh Muḥyiddīn never said this. Shaykh Muḥyiddīn never said that; there is the Creator and there is creation; creation is merely a manifestation of the attributes of God.

So when a person witnesses creation that person he or she witness God through His attributes, okay? So, he is speaking about something else. So a person has to have a shaykh, has to have a guide, and tread on this path. So understanding Sidi Muḥyiddīn a person must have spiritual openings, experiences, and to be عارف بالله (‘ārif bil’Lāh); so he is a trainer, a shaykh of, the ‘ārifūna bil’Lāh.

As for the path, I took the path ofسيدي احمد البدوي (Sidi Aḥmad al-Badawī) in Tanta (Tanta, Egypt) and then after that I went to مكه (Mecca) where I worked in theجامعة الملك عبد العزيز (the University of King AbdulAziz) in Jeddah where I met a شيخ تجاني(Tijānī shaykh) his name is Shaykh Aḥmad Idrīs and he was a student of the well known الشيخ سيدي إبراهيم إنياس الكولخي (Shaykh Sidi Ibrāhīm Eniyās al-Qawlakhi) and during that time in Mecca, I accompanied the shaykh and he gave me special ادعيه (’ad‘iyah) to recite and الحمد لله (al-ḥamdulillāh) الله (Allāh) bestowed on me His معرفة (ma’arifah) inside theحرم (ḥaram), al-ḥamdulillāh in Mecca.

Saqib
Al-ḥamdulillāh, well, that's beautiful. How would you summarize, Shaykh Muḥyiddīn’s perspective.

Dr Hany
Shaykh Muḥyiddīn, he speaks on the oneness of God,توحيد (tawḥīd): اشهد ان لا اله الا الله —I bear witness. That's why the حديث (ḥadīth) of the angel عليه السلام جبريل (Gabriel ʿalayhi as-salām, a.s.), which I stress on, is the foundation of the religion of God. And this, I tell my students, there are three dimensions in this religion; the basic, the foundation, the rituals, it's about actions, and this is the level of إسلام (ʾislām), submission, you submit to God willing. And when a person makes an effort, جهد (juhd), effort, إجتحاد (ʾijtiḥād) as the Prophet صل الله عليه وسلم (ﷺ), (ṣallā Allāhuʿalayhī wa sallam) said, the major جهاد (jihād), الجهاد الاكبر (jihād al-akbar), on the نفس (nafs), on the soul, people then transcend to the second dimension, and that is إمان )ʾīmān), as the القرآن (Qurʾān) states: قالت الأعراب آمنا (qālat al-a’rabu āmanā, Q49:14).

Okay, so you cannot say I'm a believer until ʾīmān or faith enters the heart. So this is the higher second dimension of ʾīmān and then a person makes an effort, juhd, ʾijtiḥād, on his or herself, to transcend to the third and highest level and this is the level of إحسان (ʾiḥsān).

The level of ʾiḥsān as the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) defined it, is to worship God as if you see him. So seeing is a matter of the heart, as in the Qurʾān: كذب الفؤاد ما رأى ما (mā kazaba l-fou’adu ma ra’ā, Q53:11), what it has saw. So seeing is witnessing God through the senses, and the heart is the element that witness's God as the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) said, and then the lower level, he says, "ان تعبد الله كأنك تراه"—an ta’bud l’lāh ka’anaka tarāhu, ‘You worship God as if you see him,” if you cannot see him, this is the level, the lower level of ʾiḥsān, know that God sees you. It’s the level of مراقبة (murāqabah).

So if a person cannot attain this level of seeing, witnessing God, the first pillar of ʾIslām, اشهد ان لا اله الا الله, ash-hadū anna lā illāha illa’Llāh—I witness; that's why the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) said, "قول لا اله الا الله"—qūlu lā illāha illa’Llāh, just say that. But a person, for a person to attain the level of witnessing God, the person has to fulfill ʾislām, the obligations ofʾislām, then fulfill the obligations of ʾīmān and then fulfill the obligations of ʾiḥsān.

So Sidi Muḥyiddīn Ibn al-ʿArabī addresses, for example, in his book al-Futūḥāt al-Makkīyah these three different levels of Islām. Also a person has to be, I cannot say a scholar, but someone who is founded and grounded in Islāmic jurisprudence, Qurʾānic hermeneutics, تفسير )tafsīr(, grammar, poetry—in order to fully, fully appreciate the writings of Shaykh Muḥyiddīn Ibn al-ʿArabī.

Also, عبد الهادي الشعراوي سيدي )Sidi ʿAbdulhadī ash-Sha’rāwī) the famous Ṣūfī Egyptian scholar said, “Shaykh Muḥyiddīn Ibn al-ʿArabī excelled in every field of the Religious Sciences. He is an ʾimām and everyone else is a follower of him.”

Saqib
سبحان الله (subḥānʾl-lāh).

Dr Hany
Yeah. Yeah.

Saqib
So just before we continue with some more questions, just going back to the idea of needing a shaykh and of a guide, a living shaykh and having that taste, that زوق (zawq), and those aspects of معرفه (ma’rifah). Is there a reason Shaykh Ibn al-ʿArabī did not found a lineage himself? I mean, his metaphysics is very universal, very rooted in the Qurʾān. Was he opposed to that form of تصوف (taṣṣawuf) or spirituality? And did he have a line of spiritual همه (himma) which he, I know عبد القادر الجزائري (ʿAbd al-Qādir al-Jazaʾiri) I believe lays claim to that, and obviously it's quite evident in his sermons and in his books, his works, how he's deeply influenced and spiritually in tune with the great Shaykh. So, could you say something about that?

Dr Hany
On the Ṣūfī path, excuse me, the Qurʾān says and defines the Ṣūfī path, Allāh says in the Qurʾān, الله يجتبي إليه من يشاء ويهدي إليه من ينيب (Allāhu yajtabī ilayhi man yashā’ wayahdī ilayhi man yunīb, Q42:13).

So there are two paths to God. One is those who are المجتبون (al-mujtabūn), who have been chosen, and you can translate اجتباء )’ijtibā’) as مجذوب (majdhūb) or snatched, so God snatches or brings to Himself whomever He wishes—Allāhu yajtabī ilayhi man yashā’; wayahdī ilayhi man yunīb, and guides to Himself those who repent and seek Him.

So there are two paths. The first is what's known as the majdoūb or the مطرقي (muṭraqī), a person who is transcending, this is yahdi ilayhi man yashā’, who transcends, goes upwards, والمجتبي المجذوب (wa al-mujtabī al-majdhūb), who is snatched and reaches the حظره (ḥaḍra) and witnesses God and then descends back to be among the people.

So Sidi Muḥyiddīn Ibn al-ʿArabī he mentioned the very shuyoukh who benefited him in the Ṣūfī path, but he mentions that Sidi Abū Madyan al-Ghawth was his main shaykh, even though he did not meet him in person, but I believe that Sidi Abū Madyan al-Ghawth was his spiritual shaykh and this is known as the التربيه الاويسيه (at-tarbiyya al-’ūwaysiyya), similar to what happened to أويس القرني (Ūwais al-Qārinī) of Yemen, which the Prophet (ﷺ) gave spiritual education, and they have not met.

So a person can have a spiritual shaykh who can guide him. This was my first experience where I had Sidi Aḥmad al-Badawī of Tanta he was my first spiritual shaykh; but I did not understand. I saw him in many visions, but I didn't understand. For example, one of the main visions I saw him holding a mirror in front of my face, and I saw a reflection of myself and he said and he pointed, “This is Allāh”. I didn't understand.

So, when I took the ṭarīqa Tijānīyah, I had a living shaykh. This living shaykh when he gave me a ورد (wird) according to Shaykh Ibrāhīm Eniyās, this is known as the wird at-tarbiyya. The Shaykh Sidi Aḥmad Idrīs he used to—he gave me this wird and used to ask me questions but I didn't know until I asked him one question in the poetry at the end of شيخ عبد الله الانصاري (Shaykh 'Abdullāh al-Ansārī), منازل السائرين (manāzil as-sa’irīn), that at the end says, "ما وحد الواحد من واحد", mā waḥḥada al-wāḥid min wāḥid, ‘No one made tawḥīd except the One’; mā waḥḥada al-wāḥid min wāḥid; "إذ كل من وحده جاحد"—’iz kul mann waḥadahu jāḥid, ‘So anyone who is attempting to make tawḥīd of God, he is incorrect,’ okay? "توحيد اياه توحيد"—tawḥīdu iyah tawḥīdu, ‘Who makes tawḥīd and the oneness of God is God Himself.’ And when I asked him the meaning of this, he says, this is a حجاب )ḥijāb(, it's veiled.

So people if they think they have reached and attained witnessing God and they believe that they themselves are the witnesses of God, this is still a veil.

Because in reality, it's only Him who witnesses Himself. If a person still sees himself, that's why they call it فناء (fanā’), annihilation, or effacement; if a person still thinks that he is witnessing God, that person is still in a veil. It's only God who witnesses God through the Muḥammadan Light (نور محمد, Nūr Muḥammad).

Saqib
So speaking of that, the term وحدة الوجود (waḥdatu al-wujūd) is often attributed to Shaykh Ibn al-ʿArabī and the consensus is he doesn't use that term himself but you did mention I believe in one of your talks that he uses, it was وحدة في الوجود (waḥdal fīl wujūd).

Dr Hany
Yes, yes.

Saqib
Could you just expand on that word that he used and what is his understanding of that term?

Dr Hany
He mentions this, and I met شيخ محمود الغراب (Shaykh Maḥmūd al-Ghourāb) in Egypt and he mentions this in one of his books, and I referenced him in my thesis and in my book which is coming out. Sidi Muḥyidīn Ibn al-ʿArabī never mentioned waḥdatu al-wujūd but he mentions al-waḥdah fīl wujūd—Oneness in Being. Why? Because he affirms creation, and at the same time affirms the Creator. So, waḥdatu al-wujūd can be understood as Ibn Taymiyyah and other other people understood it, there is no differentiation between the Creator, God, and His creation. Okay? But waḥdah fīl wujūd, ‘In It,’ it affirms both the Creator and the creation.

And I think this is the difference in what people understood. That's why when people mentioned for example, in the writings to be one with God, or union with God, this is incorrect because as Sidi Muḥyidīn Ibn al-ʿArabī says, ‘There is union,’ and ‘There is no حلول (ḥulūl),’ there is no incarnation. He said, من قال بالحلول" فهو معلول" —mann qala bil-ḥulūl fahuwa ma’loūl, ‘Whoever says or claims incarnation, he is sick’, fahuwa ma’loūl,"ومن قال بالإتحاد" —wa man qala bil ’itiḥād, ‘Whoever says union,’ "فهو اقرب الى الإلحاد" —fahuwa aqrabo ilā al-’ilḥād, and he explains why.

If there is incarnation, then God comes into—incarnates in. If He is the Creator of space and time, how can he incarnate in something? That's why he said fahuwa ma’lūl; man qala bil-ḥulūl fahuwa ma’lūl, ‘The person is sick.; Wa man qala bil ’itiḥād, fahuwa aqrabu ilā al-’ilḥād, how ‘This is close to heresy,’ why? Because there is only One and that is Him: God. There are no two entities which unite with each other.

So, الفتح )al-fatḥ) or الوصول (al-wuṣūl) orالمشاهده (al-mushāhadah) is a person when he or she realizes that nothing exists in reality except Him, God. That's why الحلاج (al-Ḥallaj) when uttered he said, انا الحق""—anā al-Ḥaqq, he is correct. But Sidi Muḥyidīn said that, ‘al-Ḥallaj uttered this statement when he was in a state of fanā’,’ annihilation.

So, الكمال )al-kamāl(, perfection, is البقاء (al-baqa’), and this is the station of the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ), he never said, ‘anā al-Ḥaqq’. In some ḥadīth he said, yes, "الله حق والملائكة حق والأخرة حق والرسول حق"—Allāhu ḥaqq wal-malā’ikatahu ḥaqq wal-ākhiratu ḥaqq wal-rasūl ḥaqq, but he never said ‘anā al-Ḥaqq’, ‘I am’.

So a person should follow the path of the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ), and Sidi Muḥyidīn Ibn al-ʿArabī adheres strictly to شريعة (sharīʿa). This is the path which he sticks to and this is what the Qurʾān says to the Prophet: قل ان كنتم تحبون الله (qul in kuntom tuḥibūn Allāh, Q3:31), if you claim that you love God, follow me, يحببكم الله (yuḥbibokum Allāh), follow me God will bestow His love on you.

So, the only path in reaching fatḥ, in reaching and realizing شهادة (shahāda) is by following the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) step by step. That's why many people misunderstood Sidi Muḥyidīn Ibn al-ʿArabī as saying that all religion, such as for example, the perennialist philosophy that all paths lead to one thing and that is Allāh, this is incorrect. They misunderstood Shaykh Muḥyidīn Ibn al-ʿArabī.

Sidi Muḥyidīn Ibn al-ʿArabī is speaking from the witnessing of the عارف بالله )‘ārif bil’Lāh(, the gnostic. The gnostic witnesses God in everything, al-waḥdah fī al-wujūd, where he or she witnesses God in everything, even in other forms of religions.

But God chose this path, the path of the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) for a person, a مسلم (Muslim). That's why He said: ومن يبتغ غير الإسلام دينا فلن يقبل منه (wa-man yabtaghi ghayr al-’islāmi dīnā falan yoqbal minh, Q3:85); whoever chooses another religion other than Islām, this will not be accepted from that person. So the path of reaching this realization is through the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) through the path and this was the path of Sidi Muḥyidīn.

Also, Sidi Muḥyidīn has lineage and al-ḥamdulillāh I have also lineage سلسله (silsila) going back to Shaykh Muḥyidīn, from one of my shuyoukh شيخ مصطفى الندوي (Shaykh Muṣṭafa al-Nadawī) of Egypt and he took his silsila from شيخ أبو الحسن الندوي الحسن (Shaykh Abū al-Ḥassan al-Nadawī al-Ḥassan). So there is a link, a lineage, going back to the silsila, ṭariqa al-’Akbariyya, from this path, and I have also تباركا (tabārukan) from the Shaykh Sidi Muṣṭafa al-Nadawī.

Saqib
Beautiful, so Sidi, could you while we're on this topic of sharīʿa, could you say a bit more about the Akbarian school of legal perspective because I know from having briefly studied certain parts of the Futūḥāt, mainly the chapter on fasting in Ramadan, I normally do, is how he cites different perspectives and never saying one is right or wrong, but then he gives his perspective. And also in your talk, you mentioned how he uses كشف (kashf) as a means of verifying a ḥadīth.

Dr Hany
Yes.

Saqib
So what is the Akbarian school of law, if you’d like, what is his legal perspective?

Dr Hany
Sidi Muḥyidīn he began following the المدرسة المالكي (Mālikī School of jurisprudence). Then as he matured spiritually, he began seeing the different paths and he, I believe he reached the level of الاجتهاد المطلق (al-’ijtihād al-muṭlaq) similar to what ʾImām al-Ghazālī reached.

So, in the فقه (fiqh), in the school of jurisprudence, when he reached the level of ’ijtihād in the Mālikī School, he left and excelled by understanding sharīʿa and also this is mentioned in the Qurʾān. Allāh says in the Qurʾān: واتق الله ويعلمكم الله(wa-taqu l-lāh wa-yu’alimukum l-lāh, Q2:282). If you are God fearing, if you are pious, God Himself will teach you.

For example, in the story of Moses (موسى عليه السلام, Mūsa) and الخضر (al-Khidr a.s.) in the Qurʾān, it teaches the three levels of annihilation. The first level الفناء في الافعال (al- fanā’ fīl af‘āl), annihilation in actions, and this means a person when he or she are on the path of this self realization that nothing exists but God. The first is the level of annihilation in actions. This means a person witnesses the actions, that they're not the actions of creation, but the actions of God. Okay? وما رميت اذ رميت ولكن الله رمى (wamā ramayta idh ramayta walākinna l-lāha ramā, Q8:17), you threw, and you threw not, it was only God who threw. So a person on the path, this path, realizes this level, then they have reached the state of annihilation in the actions and they see the actions of God.

And this when سيدنا الخظر (sayyidinā al-Khidr) to Moses, Moses asked him when he broke the ship, he said, اخرقتها لتغرق اهلها (akharqtahā litoghriqa ahl-lahā, Q18:71); اردت ان اعيبها (’āradttu an aʿībahā, Q18:79), I wanted to make it faulty. Why did he say I wanted?

So, when he broke the ship, he did not see himself breaking it, but it was the action of God who was breaking the ship, ’āradttu an aʿībahā.

And then when he killed the boy, he said اردنا ان يبدلهما ربهما (ʿaradnā an yubadilahumā rabbahumā, Q18:81), we wanted; so, this is the second level of annihilation in the attributes, الفناء في الصفات (fanā’ fīl ṣifāt), okay. So, قاتلوهم يعذبهم الله بأيديكم (qātilūhum yo’adhibuhum l-lāhu bi’ayydīkum, Q9:14) the verse in the Qur’ān, fight them God will torture or torment them through your hands. This is fanā’ fīl ṣifāt. And then finally, when he built the wall, he said, اراد ربك ان يبلغا اشدهما (’arāda rabbaka an yabloghā ashaddahumā, Q18:82), God wanted, this is fanā’ in the essence (الفناء في الذات).

So this is the three levels of annhilation: ’āradttu an aʿībahā; ʿaradnā an yubadilahumā rabbahumā; ’arāda rabbak. وما فعلته عن أمري (wamā fa’altuhu ‘an ’amrī, Q18:82), I did not do it on my own accord. So this is the path on reaching annihilation and witnessing God; it is not you, it is only Him.

So this is how Sidi Muḥyidīn receives his knowledge from God direct; and sayyidinā al-Khidr in سورة الكهف (sūra al-Kahf), Allāh says: عبدا من عبادنا آتيناه رحمة من عندنا وعلمناه من لدنا علما(‘abdan min ‘ibādinā ’ātaynāhu raḥmatan min ‘indinā wa‘allamnāhu min ladunnā ‘ilman, Q18:65), this is ‘ilm al-ladun. So, this is open for everyone as the condition is following the sharīʿa.

That's why you cannot say, ‘ārif bil’Lāh or a محسن (muḥsin) who has reached or attained this stage does not follow all observe sharīʿa! How can a person not follow the Prophet (ﷺ) and observe sharīʿa attain such a level? It has to be through sharīʿa; it has to be through the path of the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ).

That's why Sidi Muḥyidīn he reached al-’ijtihād al-muṭlaq and he has his own fiqh; and also Shaykh Maḥmūd al-Ghourāb he gathered the different perspectives and judicial opinions of Shaykh Muḥyidīn in one of his books: الفقه عند الشيخ الأكبر (al-fiqh ‘ind al-shaykh al-Akbar, Jurisprudence According to the Shaykh al-Akbar).

That is why Sidi Muḥyidīn Ibn al-ʿArabī, I tell my colleagues and friends, Sidi Muḥyidīn, he's an ʾimām, everyone else is a follower of Sidi Muḥyidīn and ma’arifā bil-lāh. So you correct, a person corrects his or her understanding of spiritual openings, according to what Shaykh Muḥyidīn said, not the opposite. [Chuckles]

Saqib
[Chuckles] Subḥānʾl-lāh. Could you say, I know you've done a lot of work around the love, the teachings of love, in Shaykh Muḥyidīn Ibn al-ʿArabī, before we dive into the his teachings, let's just go to the words Shaykh Ibn al-ʿArabī uses, does he use the word عشق )‘ishq)? I know there's a Qur’ānic word حب (ḥubb), إن كنتم تحبون الله فاتبعوني يحببكم الله (in kuntum tuḥibbūna l-lāh fa-itabi‘oūnī yuḥ’bibkumu l-lāh, Q3:31).

So the word ḥubb and in your video, YouTube video on Love and the Teachings of Ibn al-ʿArabī you cite the two Qur’ānic verses and three aḥadīth, which are central to Shaykh Ibn al-ʿArabī’s teachings, which I'd recommend our listeners to watch if they haven't done so already.

So, and also in the فصوص (Fuṣuṣ; فصوص الحكم), he uses the word شهوة )shahwah) in a positive connotation, which again, for many readers would be quite controversial because of the way it gets translated. And so could you elaborate on these different terms and what they mean in the school of Ibn al-ʿArabī?

Dr Hany
Shaykh Muḥyidīn as I said he adheres strictly to sharīʿa. So, he says, ‘ishq, he does not use the word ‘ishq, however, the word ‘ishq is usually used by Persian Ṣūfīs, such as Rūmī and others. But Sidi Muḥyidīn he uses the Qur’ānic words. For example, he says, even though ‘ishq is not a Qur’ānic term, its meaning is used in the Qur’ān, for example, and he references زليخة (Zulaikha) when she loved Joseph (يوسف, Yoūsef), he said, قد شغفها حبًّا (qad shaghafahā ḥubban, Q12:30). So he used the word شغف (shaghf), resembles the word ‘ishq; shaghafahā ḥubban, that his love in engulfed, encapsulated her heart.

As I said, he keeps on referencing the Qur’ān and the ḥadīth. So if a person understands the tafsīr, the Qur’ānic word, words, the terms, and also the aḥadīth, he draws from every path, from the Qur’ān, from the poetry, from the etymological root of every word for example, he says, “It begins by a whim,” الهوى )al-hawā).

The Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) mentions this hawā but in a negative—in a positive sense where even though it’s used negative, remains in the Qur’ān in a negative sense, hawā is a whim and it can mean, in the Arabic term, هوى يهوى (hawā yahwā) or يهوي (yahwī)—from something above to a lower state; that's why you say falling in love, a person falls in love. So, it begins by a whim and then love, if a person loves something purely, he uses and explains the word ḥubb to mean, one of the meanings of it is a seed. So it begins, you plant a small seed in the heart and then it becomes a big tree and grows step by step until it reaches the level of ‘ishq or engulfing the heart by the convolvulus plant when it wraps itself around the binding weed and this is a term also which is used in the Qur’ān and this is the word خليل (khalīl) and that's why Allāh chose and named the Prophet Abraham (إبراهيم عليه السلام, Ibrahīm a.s.) as خليل الله (khalīl Allāh).

Also the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) when he mentioned أبو بكر رضيا الله عنه (Abū Bakr raddiya Allāhu ‘anhu, r.a.), he also said that the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ), he is his khalīl. But the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) said himself, he is khalīl ar-Raḥman.

Saqib
Mm hmm.

Dr Hany
So the highest level of love or ‘ishq you can say is الخلة (al-khullah). That's why the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) said in the ḥadith, "فلينظر أحدكم من يخالل المرء على دين خليله"—al-mar’ou ‘alā dīni khalīleh fal yanthur aḥadukum man yūkhīla; a person is on the terms or literally the religion of his very closest intimate friend, khalīl, so you have to choose wisely, whom you befriend.

Saqib
Mm hmm and so, the term shahwa, the Qur’ānic verse, ‘Have you not seen the person who has taken for his God his hawwā,’

Dr Hany
أفرأيت من اتخذ إلهه هواه (afara’ayta man itakhadha ilāhahu hawāhu, Q45:23).

Saqib
Yes.

Dr Hany
وأضله الله على علم (wa-aḍalahu l-lāhu ‘alā ‘ilm, Q45:23), on knowledge.

Saqib
Yes.

Dr Hany
That's why the most important thing here is the intention. What is your intention? Is your intention Allāh? Is your intention, paradise? Is your intention to reach قطبانية (qutbāniyyah)? Is your intention to reach fatḥ itself, opening? Is your intention to be called a ولي (walī) or a ‘ārif bil’Lāh? What is your intention? That's why the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) said, إنما الأعمال بالنيات""—’inamā ala’-‘amalu bil niyyāt, ‘Whatever you do, it depends on your own intention,’ what you intend. That's why intention, النية (an-nīyyah) is very, very important. You have to keep purifying your intention.

Dr Hany
Is it Allāh you want? Or is it paradise? You choose. Is it Allāh, or fatḥ even? And this is the last hurdle before reaching opening or fatḥ. You want Me or you want fatḥ?

That's why you have to—the Ṣūfī’s call it تخلي (takhalī), you have to leave everything, you only want Allāh. That's why it is narrated that Allāh said that, ‘All people ask from Me, they want something from Me, except Abū Yazīd, he wanted Me only’.

That's why your goal, is Allāh.

And I keep criticizing them all when they mention, for example, the ḥadīth of الإمام ترمدي )ʾImām Tarmidī(, ‘The martyrs will have 70 houris’. What is 70 houris compared to God, Allāh? If you reached Allāh, you have reached and attained everything. If you have missed Allāh, you have missed everything.

So what is the goal here for Muslims? That's why I said: ʾislām, ʾīmān, ʾiḥsān, are all rituals in Islām or paths, they are corridors to that goal.

They are not an end to themselves. Paradise is not the goal itself. Paradise is a means to witness God. [Chuckles] It's not an end in itself; and that's why in the Qur’ān also the verse says: وانا الى ربك المنتهى (wa-anna ilā rabbika al-muntahā, Q53:42); and everything ends to God, to your Lord, wa-anna ilā rabbika al-muntahā, so this is the goal.

Also, I tell my students, when the people say, “Oh, they attack and critic Ṣūfīs,” in sharīʿa there is no such a word as تصوف (taṣṣawuf) or صوفي (ṣūfī) and I keep telling them this. But this is the level or علوم الإحسان (‘ulūm al-ʾiḥsān), the science of ʾiḥsān or benevolence or good doing. And I tell them, “Have you ever heard when a person asks are you muslim?” He says, “I’m a Muslim”. If he's asked, “Are you a مؤمن (mu’min)? He says, “Yes, yes I’m a mu’min,” with a difference of opinion between the شافعي (shāfi’ī) and the [Chuckles] aḥnāf, okay? But have you ever heard someone say, “I’m a محسن (muḥsin),”? No one says I'm a muḥsin. So this term has been attached and ascribed to them. No one says I’m a muḥsin and only in the Qur’ān, God says, from the muslimūn wal-mu’minūn wal- muḥsinūn; He only loves the benevolence. إن الله يحب المحسنين (inna l-lāha yuḥib al-muḥsinīn,Q2:195); ان الله مع الذين اتقوا (inna l-lāha ma’ al-lathīna itaqū, Q16:128), he is with the God fearing and the pious, والذين هم محسنون (wal-ladhīna hum muḥsinūn, Q16:128). So this is a special معية (ma’iyya), He is with them in a special way; yes, God is with everyone okay, with all of His creation, but this is a special ma’iyya, the people who are good doers or the muḥsinūn.
And that's why the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) said, when he was asked about al-hawā he said, "لا يؤمن احدكم" —la yu’min aḥadukum, this is the second level, al-’imān, ‘None of you believes,’ I’m not talking about the Muslims, the second level, la yu’min aḥadukum, ‘None of you believes until.’ "حتى يكون هواه تبعا لما جئت به"—hatā yakūna hawāhu tab’ān limā ji’ita bih, ‘Until his or her hawā, or whim, is according to what I have delivered,’ and that is the Qur’ān, and the سنة (sunnah), which is an interpretation of the Qur’ān.

So, hawā here, the second level, a person reaches ʾīmān when he or she desires nothing except what Allāh commanded and the Prophet (ﷺ) explained. “La yu’min aḥadukum hatā yakūna hawāhu tab’ān limā ji’ita bih”. So all this is the path of ʾiḥsān; this is the science of ʾiḥsān.

Also, Sidi Muḥyidīn when he describes, he does not say ‘ārif bil’lāh, even though the term has been used in a particular ḥadīth, when one of the companions, I think حارثة (زيد ابن حارثة, Zayd ibn Ḥaritha) said, "اصبحت الان مؤمنا حقا", he told the Prophet (ﷺ) ‘I woke up a true believer now.’ And so the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) asked him what he felt and then at the end he said, "عرفت فالزم"—‘arafta fa-alzim, the Prophet (ﷺ) told him ‘You now know so adhere to this path.’ That's why they call them ‘ārif, but Sidi Muḥyidīn he explained it he said, ‘No, you cannot call him ‘ārif bil’lāh because it is not a Qur’ānic term’ and you cannot attribute the name ‘ārif to God, he's not a ‘ārif because ma’rifa can be superficial. You can understand something from the outside but you do not know al-‘ilm exactly of it, but ‘ilm is full knowledge. So there's a difference between ma’rifa and ‘ilm.

‘Ilm can be interpreted as science but ‘ilm is full knowledge. That's why in the Qur’ān God says in سورة ال عمران (sura al-‘imrān), شهد الله أنه لا إله إلا هو (shahida l-lāhu annahu lā ilāha illā huwa).

Saqib
Illā huwa,

Dr Hany
والملائكة وأولو العلم (wal-malāikatu wa-ulū al-‘ilm, Q3:18) [Chuckles] that’s why Sidi Muḥyidīn uses the word عالم بالله (‘ālim bil’lāh); ‘ālim bil’lāh not ‘ārif bil’lāh.

Saqib
Useful, Sidi, just the term you mentioned, taqwā, وقاية (wiqāya).

Dr Hany
Yes.

Saqib
Often this is a very problematic term in the way it gets translated, or it gets misunderstood as fear of Allāh, which then has many connotations in the way it's understood in the Western or English language, which you know we don't need to go into but could you, but I know in the Fuṣuṣ, I believe in the first chapter, Shaykh Muḥyidīn has a play on the roots و ق ي (waw-qaf-ya) in various sort of verses and lines. Could you please explain to our listeners what the word taqwā is in the school of Ibn al-ʿArabī?

Dr Hany
In the school of Ibn al-ʿArabī, taqwā here, الامام علي (ʾImām ʿAlī) explained "التقوى الخوف من الجليل والعمل بالتنزيل والرضا بالقليل" —at- taqwā al-khawf min al-jalīl wal-‘amal biltanzīl wal-riḍā bilqalīl, as ʾImām ʿAlī explained. But here you can refer to the ḥadīth mentioned by the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) narrated when he went to pray outside on the ninth or the 15th of شعبان (sha’bān). He said, وأعوذ برضاك من سخطك" "اللهم إني أعوذ بعفوك من عقوبتك، —allāhumma inni ah-‘udhu bi-‘afūka min ‘ouqūbatik, wa-‘oudhu bi-riḍāka min sakhatika, and then he said, "وأعوذ بك منك لا أحصي ثناء عليك" —‘ah-outhubika minka lā aḥṣi thiinā’ ‘alayka), ‘I take refuge from You to You.’ So taqwā is taking refuge from Allāh, His wrath, and asking God to protect you from Himself, ‘ah-outhubika minka, ‘I take refuge from You to You.’ This is what the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) said. This is the reality of taqwā.

It's not you who are God fearing. God has manifested on that person and gave him this sense or feeling or feeling of God fearing hence that person abides by the rulings of sharīʿa. It is not you. There’s still duality if you think that you are sincere, then you are on grave danger, as ʾImām al-Ghazālī has said, "كل الناس هلكى" —kul an-nāsi halkā, ‘All people are doomed, except those who have knowledge’—"كل الناس هلكى إلا العالمون"—kul an-nāsi halkā illā al-‘ālimūn, and و كل العالمون هلكى إلا العاملون —wa-kul l-‘ālimūna halkā illā al-‘āmilūn, ‘All knowledgeable people are doomed except those who act with what they have known,’ "وكل العاملون هلكى إلا المخلصون" —wa-kul l-‘āmilūna halkā illā al-mukhliṣūn, and ‘All those acting by what they knew are in danger except those who are sincere,’ "والمخلصون على خطر عظيم" —wal-mukhliṣūna ‘alā khatrin ‘athīm, ‘And those who are sincere are on great danger.’ Why? Because they see themselves as sincere. That’s why سيدي أبو الحسن الشاذلي (Sidi Abū Ḥassan ash-Shādhulī) he said, ‘You can summarize the whole of the Futūḥāt in a couple of words: لا ترضى عن نفسك قط (lā tarḍa ‘an nafsaka kaṭ), ‘Do not be satisfied ever with yourself.’

Saqib
Subḥānʾl-lāh.

Dr Hany
So the reality of taqwā, the reality is not you who are God fearing it's what God has manifested or bestowed on that creation to take the path of taqwā. Why? Because He wants to teach you. He has chosen you to be sincere, He has loved you before you loved him.

He has welded that you will so you can ask Him; that's why سيدي احمد ابن عجيبه (Sidi Aḥmad ibn Ajība) he said, “He did not open the gate of supplication or دعاء (du’ā); he only opened this gate because He wants to give you.” That's why the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) also said, "لا يغير القضاء إلا الدعاء" —la yughayr al-qaḍa illa l-du’ā, ‘Fate can only be changed through du’a.’ So du’ā itself is from fate, God opened that gate of du’ā, supplication, so you can ask God and so he can bestow and give you. There is nothing but Him.

There is nothing but Him. So this is the school of Sidi Muḥyiddīn.

Saqib
That’s beautiful because often in conversations with people, I've had some recently actually, the term taqwā, the understanding of it is often rooted in duality.

Dr Hany
Yes. [Laughs]

Saqib
And so they… it’s a mental sort of fear, if you like, of a punishing God —

Dr Hany
No… [Elongates in dissent]

Saqib
For their own sort of shortcomings and, yeah, so I think there's a more subtler nuance than that, as you rightly mentioned.

And Sidi so on this, you mentioned Shaykh Abū Ḥassan ash-Shādhulī summarizing the Futūḥāt.

Dr Hany
The Futūḥāt, yes.

Saqib
Could you say a bit more about the relationship of Shaykh Abū Ḥassan ash-Shādhulī and the Akbarian school? Was he deeply steeped in it? Was he learned in the Akbarian metaphysics?

Dr Hany
[Pauses] Also, I'd like to explain this point, Sidi Muḥyiddīn Ibn al-ʿArabī was not the first to speak about tawḥīd or oneness of being. Tawḥīd you can conclude and deduce from or many Qur’ānic verses and many aḥadīth, okay, so the companions of the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ), well I can mention many many many ḥadīth ʾImām Alī and… I can mention many of them; even among جنيد (Junayd) he spoke about tawḥīd the oneness of being as you can see oneness of being so it was already, this is tawḥīd, this is the realization of the first pillar of Islām as I said, ash-hadū anna lā illāha—I witness. Okay? So someone who has not witnessed God, it's a false statement. That's why the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) he said, "قولوا لا اله الا الله" —qulū lā illāha illa’Llāh, just utter, say it, you will be successful; but only few who realize it, only few who God gives them and bestows on them this gift, so they can witness and realize. Why? Because He wants them to realize this. So this is not for everyone. Okay? Al-ma’rifah or الشهود (ash-shuhūd).

Also, God can take someone and give him, bestows this ma’rifah and He can keep it for that person. Others, God can give them permission to guide others in attaining this path. So there's a ‘ārif bil’lāh or a ‘ālim bil’lāh who has reached this witnessing and ma’rifah, okay, but God did not give him permission to guide others. Okay, Sidi Abū Ḥassan ash-Shādhulī, when he reached to this and attained it he did not want to go out from his خلوة )khulwa( so God threatened to him, he said, ‘Go out and teach people or I will take everything which I have bestowed on you.’ Why? Because He wanted him to teach others. Okay?

Also, they say that the gnostics know each other, so a person who has or she has tasted this ma’rifah, okay, and speaks about it, those who have experienced a similar experience, understand who is truthful and who's not. Okay? So a person can speak about ma’rifah, having not experienced it, how can he describe it? Okay, so you're just reading. That's why اليقين (al-yaqīn( has three levels and these are mentioned in the Qur’ān. There is علم اليقين (‘ilm al-yaqīn), the knowledge of certitude, there’s عين اليقين (‘ayn al-yaqīn), vision of certitude, and there’s حق اليقين )ḥaqq al-yaqīn), reality of certitude. Similarly, so you can see there's also a tripartite relation similar to the states of annihilation. Okay, and then you can read the number three; why the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) in his prayer, he mentioned three times, "سبحان ربي العظيم" —subḥānna rabbi al-athīm, three times and then in سجود (sujoūd) three times "سبحان ربي الأعلى" —subḥānna rabbi al-a'lā. Why the three? The three levels of annihilation, the three levels of certitude.

So, people who read about Sidi Muḥyiddīn who have only knowledge of certitude, they have not witnessed it and they have not realized, it’s reality. So, Shaykh Abū Ḥassan ash-Shādhulī, Sidi Aḥmad al-Badawī, سيدي عبدالقادر الجيلاني Sidi ʿAbd al-Qādir al-Jīlānī, سيدي احمد الرفاعي (Sidi Aḥmad ar-Rifa’ī) all these poles (قطب, qutb) of the ṣūfī paths have reached such stages. Like when I give an example, hey are like different flowers, different scents, different shapes and colors. Why? Because people have different tastes. For example, someone may like, is attracted and God wanted that person to come to at-ṭarīqa ash-Shādhuliyya because for example, he or she love reading and the أوراد (awrād) and the أحذاب (aḥ’zāb), okay. At-ṭarīqa of Sidi Aḥmad al-Badawī is mainly about جذب (jazb), ذكر (dhikr), mentioning God and jazb, okay, so these paths are different gates, okay, to reaching one thing, and that is Allāh.

So, and I keep, also, I tell my students, these paths and these ’aqtāb, these poles, are like different doors, okay, but different doors, okay, different appearances, that lead to the same thing. Okay. I'm speaking about Islām, I'm speaking about sharīʿa, I'm not speaking about Buddhism or Hinduism.

The religion of Islām, the path of the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ), okay. So even though Sidi Muḥyiddīn Ibn al-ʿArabī already he was contemporary to Shaykh Abū Ḥassan ash-Shādhulī, شيخ أبو عباس المرسي (Shaykh Abū al-Abbās al-Mursī), Sidi Aḥmad al-Badawī, سيدي أبو احمد السغري (Sidi Abū Aḥmad as-Sughurī), he mentioned only Sidi ʿAbd al-Qādir al-Jīlānī, okay, in his writings, and mentioned many ofcourse of the Moroccan ’awliyā and the Moroccan ‘arifīn, for example, in his book, رسالة روح القدس (Risālat rūḥ al-quds) and also in the Futūḥāt. So they usually differentiated between between Eastern Ṣūfism and Western Ṣūfism. So you can Sidi Muḥyiddīn Ibn al-ʿArabī was part of the Western Ṣūfism in Morocco, in North Africa and in Andalusia, okay, because he was raised and grounded in this surface, that's why maybe he did not mention the Eastern ṣūfīs or ‘’awliyā.

Saqib
And just on this topic of waḥdah fil wujūd—

I don't know if you have looked into this, but it would be wonderful if you can offer the explanation; in the الطريقة النقشبندية (Naqshbandī path), شيخ احمد السرندي (Shaykh Aḥmad as-Sirhindī), in his Maktūbat, but I believe has firstly deep reverence for the Shaykh al-Akbar but then also has a difference of opinion where he says, he advocates, الوحده في الشهود (al-waḥdah fil shuhūd).

Dr Hany
Waḥdah fi ash-shuhūd, yes.

Saqib
And he says this is shuhūdi perspective as opposed to wujūdi, but that obviously is not bearing in mind what you've just said of waḥdah fil al-wujūd.

Dr Hany
Yes.

Saqib
Could you explain this this difference? Was it based on a misunderstanding then?

Dr Hany
Not misunderstanding, I cannot say Sidi as-Sirhindī was misunderstood, no, it's a level on the path.

Saqib
I see.

Dr Hany
So, for example, when the ‘ārif bil’lāh or the ‘ālim bil’lāh is in a state of annihilation, effacing, and witnessing God, so who is witnessing? He thinks, he still thinks that he’s still witnessing.

So this is a level where waḥdah fi ash-shuhūd, ‘Oh I am the gnostic, I am the ‘ārif bil’lāh who's witnessing God.’

But the higher level you do not see yourself, you efface yourself, فناء الفناء (fanā’ al-fanā’), the annihilation of your annihilation and this is called the بقاء (baqā’) . That's what why this is the highest, تمكين (tamkīn).So Shaykh Sirhindī when he said, waḥdah fi ash-shuhūd, he is correct, but it is a lesser level than the higher level of fanā’ al-fanā’; who is witnessing, is it you or God? Shahida l-lāhu annahu lā ilāha illā huwa.

It is Him who is witnessing Himself. [Chuckles]

Saqib
Subḥānʾl-lāh. So, and then so Sidi can you mention within this context, and I think Rūmī has a lot to say around this, the connection between human love and divine love.

Dr Hany
Yes.

Saqib
So many people will not understand love—

Had they not tasted human love.

Dr Hany
Yes.

Saqib
But at the same time where there is divine eminence and transcendence, surely, the only reason we know human love is because there is divine love.

Dr Hany
Yes.

Saqib
And ultimately, although we think we are loving—

Dr Hany
Yeah.

Saqib
It is really—where do you—is there a distinction? Can you draw the distinction between what we call human love and divine love.

Dr Hany
Yeah.

Saqib
And maybe I should just add, the lā illāha illa l’lāh, the Ibn al-ʿArabī way of also looking at this, is to say that that people are worshipping Allāh whether they are aware of it or not.

Dr Hany
Yes.

Saqib
So مجنون (Majnūn) when he talks about ليلى (Layla)—

Dr Hany
Yes.

Saqib
Ultimately, he’s seen the face of the Beloved.

Dr Hany
Yes.

Saqib
And so what or how do you make this distinction between human and Divine? Or is there—

Dr Hany
There is no distinction.

Saqib
There’s no distinction. [Laughs]

Dr Hany
It appears, it's an illusion, like in the Hindu concept of Maya. It's Maya. You think that you are loving God or there is a human. Every emotion in creation is merely a manifestation of the Divine Names of God. So the majority of people are veiled.

God is never veiled. God is not veiled. People are veiled from witnessing Him. That's why the ṣūfīs they call it ḥadra; you keep mentioning God until you witness God, the veils on your heart are lifted to witness Him. Okay? And as in reality, it's Him who was witnessing Himself, so He is lifting the veils on your heart to witness Himself on you. [Chuckles]

That's why ʾImām Alī said, "لو رفع عني الحجاب ما ازددت يقينا" —law rufi’a ‘anni al-ḥijābu ma ’azdadtu yaqīnan, and ʾImām Alī said, ‘If the veils are lifted my certitude will not increase.’ Why? So in reality there is no veils. You are veiling yourselves by yourselves.

So this is the reality. So human love, affection, even between animals, every form of love that you see is merely a manifestation of God. The manifestation of the divine love of God because in reality that nothing exists except Him. So He is the lover, He is the Beloved, and He is the feeling—the feelings of the essence of love itself.

Saqib
Subḥānahu.

Dr Hany
Yeah.

Saqib
[Pauses] That's beautiful. So could you tell us about your new book Love in the teachings of Ibn al-ʿArabī?

Dr Hany
Yes, it's my MA dissertation, I did it at the University of Lethbridge where I analyzed the chapter of love in the Futūḥāt al-Makkīyah, chapter 178. So my focus was on this chapter only. Then my PhD I made a bigger survey, like I wrote from the فصوص الحكم (Fuṣuṣ al-Ḥikam). For Fuṣuṣ al-Ḥikam I chose, faṣ ḥikma Muḥammadiyyah and I explained the concept of love in it, why God chose the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) to be his most beloved. Okay, so I chose this faṣ from Fuṣuṣ al-Ḥikam and I also expanded on the chapter of the Futūḥāt 178 and also other books. So, my book is the culmination of my MA, my PhD, in this book.

Saqib
Subḥānʾl-lāh, and just on faṣ of Muḥammadiyyah in the Fuṣuṣ, the ḥadīth about women, perfume, and prayer.

Could you please tell us about that and explain Ibn al-ʿArabī’s commentary or perspective?

Dr Hany
Excellent, yes. Sidi Muḥyiddīn he explained the ḥadīth in saying, " حبب الي"—ḥubbib-ah ilayya, ‘So these things were made beloved to me,’ so this means the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) never chose to love it, but they were made beloved to him. Why God? Because some people say, “The greatest manifestation is in the form of the female.” Why? Because it is the entity of perfect manifestation of the Beautiful Namesالاسماء الجمالية )al-asmā’a al-jamāliyya).

So, see every female God created, ومن كل شيء خلقنا زوجين (wa-min kuli shay’in khalaqnā zawjayn, Q51:49), from everything we made two things, a male and a female. So the male here is the perfect manifestation of the Majestical Names, الأسماء الجلالية )al-asmā’a al-jalāliyya), and females are the perfect manifestation of al-asmā’a al-jamāliyya, beautiful. So when these two creations mate, interact, ينتج عنهما الخلق (yantuj ‘anhummā al-khalq); creation is made from the mating of these two names, creation.

Okay, so creation comes out of love through these two names al-asmā’a al-jamāliyya wal-asmā’a al-jalāliyya. So, that's why these two things are a perfect manifestation of the Beautiful Names in the form of the feminine and also perfumes, something beautiful. These are manifestations of beauty.

Also, the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) is the perfect manifestation of al-asmā’a al-jamāliyya. Why people speak about the majesty or the jalāl of the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ), it is the jalāl of his most perfect and imminent beauty jamāl. It's similar when you eat something very sweet, it burns you. [Chuckles]

So, the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) his jalāl is merely the complete perfection of the manifestation of beauty.

Saqib
Subḥānʾl-lāh, Sidi I am very indebted to your time that you've given us and I would just like to ask you for any closing words or any advice on how to, for our readers, on how to approach Ibn al-ʿArabī for those who are yearning to better understand or connect with him? How should they approach him? And also, I think a theme that I've recently found with some friends, is, in this time, there seems to be a scarcity or a difficulty in finding shuyoukh of a certain caliber as there was 15, 20, 50 years ago, they seemed to be much more easily, readily available, access to you know eminent shuyoukh of ʾiḥsān and so what the advice is for those who are seeking truth and a means to the truth?

Dr Hany
First of all, when this comes to a person's heart, to seek God out, to seek this path, it is God who is giving that person permission to come to Him. So first you acknowledge that God wants me. God here is the مريد (murīd) and you are the مراد (murād). So when this intention comes to a specific person, that person has to seek a spiritual guide who has afaqīḥ, ‘ulūm ash-sharḥ, a scholar in sharīʿa, and who has completed the path, the spiritual path of self realization and witnessing God, and has permission to guide others; وداعيا الى الله بإذنه (wa-dā‘iyān illā l’lāh bidhnih, Q33:46); you only can guide people except if you have permission to guide from God; وداعيا إلى الله بإذنه وسراجا منيرا (wa-dā‘iyan illā l’lāh bidhnih wa-sirājan munīran, Q33:46) as the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ).

So, a person cannot just come and initiate, “Okay, I have now been given permission to make a path, a ṭarīqa,” this cannot be done, it can only be given. For example, if the Prophet (ﷺ), a person has direct connection to the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ), the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) gives that shaykh permission to guide others, then he or she can make a ṭarīqa. You cannot just invent a ṭarīqa and give it a name or just because ‘I have reached a fatḥ’, no one does this. People who do it, but, they are not authentic.

Saqib
Yeah.

Dr Hany
To guide people; that's why in سورة يوسف (sūra Yousef), this path is the path of the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ). The end of sūra Yousef, the verse: قل هذه سبيلي (qul hādhihi sabīlī, Q12:108), say this is my path, أدعو إلى الله (ad-‘ū ilā l’lāh, Q12:108), I make da’wa to Allāh,على بصيرة (‘alā baṣīratin, Q12:108), on an insight, انا ومن اتبعني (ana wa-man itaba’anī, Q12:108), so this is the path of the Prophet (ﷺ). It is not the path of Shaykh Abū Ḥassan ash-Shādhulī or Sidi ʿAbd al-Qādir al-Jīlānī or Sidi Aḥmad ar-Rifa’ī or Sidi Aḥmad al-Badawī or Sidi Aḥmad al-Tijānī; it is not their path, they are mere representatives of the Prophet (ﷺ) in their time and they were given permission to guide people to God.

So, seeking this shaykh, if a person cannot find a shaykh wārid then the shuyoukh said, ‘الصلاة (as-ṣalat) on the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) becomes the shaykh of the spiritual seeker until he or she find an authentic true shaykh.’ So making ṣalawat on the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) is the greatest dhikr. Okay?

A person who is seeking God and seeking to find the truth should adhere to, whether it's دلائل الخيرات (dala’il al-khayrāt),كنز الاسرار (kunz al-’asrār), specific ṣalat on the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ), that person should make ṣalawat on the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) as much as he or she can until the ṣalat guides through the ṣalat for you to reach that shaykh. When you reach that shaykh, this is not the end, okay? You might be tested. You might see things, worldly things, because the shaykh is human, he is a manifestation, he is a creation. Okay? You might doubt, “Oh, how did this shaykh…” you are being tested here. Similar to what? Al-Khidr said to Moses: لن تستطيع معي صبرا (lan tastaṭī‘a ma-‘aī ṣabran, Q18:67), you cannot have patience with me. And then he explained: كيف تصبر على ما لم تحط به خبرا (kayf taṣbir ‘alā ma lam ṭuḥit bihi khubrā, Q18:68) how can you have patience when you cannot [Chuckles] totally understand what's going on? Okay, taṣbir ‘alā ma lam ṭuḥit bihi khubrā, so here the seeker comes to the intention; your intention was to seek and attain God, ask God to purify your intention and ask Him to guide you to Him.

اللهم انت )Allāhumma anta), only You I want; keep purifying your intention until God Himself takes you to Himself. That's why the shuyoukh also they say, if God leads you to a ‘ārif bil’lāh, a ‘ālim bil’lāh, to a gnostic, "اذا اوصلك إلى عارف فقد اوصلك اليه"—idha awṣalaka ilā ‘ārif faqaḍ awṣalaka ilayh, ‘He has led you to Himself,’ but you are still veiled from seeing this, okay?

And when a person follows the shaykh who has direct lines to the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ), okay, the silsila, so that person adheres to the chain, to the silsila, and then through spiritual experiences احوال (aḥwāl) and the مقامات (maqamāt), states and stations, a person reaches fana’, so you have to adhere to a living shaykh, because you will be tested. You might reach the end but the door has not yet opened, you might return back. Why? Because, the heart is not pure or prepared yet to enter the ḥadra, okay, and even if a person reaches the ḥadra, you are still sealed upon. Why? Because is it the beauty of witnessing you want or is it Me?

Saqib
Mm hmm.

Dr Hany
You want Me or you want this beauty? Okay? So it's a test till the end, test after test, and passing the test is adhering to God, all the time asking God. Okay? So, I think this is my advice from my experience which I liked to share with all of you.

Saqib
باركه الله فيك (bāraka Allāh fīk) Sidi and just last question is those who are seeking a means to better understand Ibn al-ʿArabī, to become immersed in the Shaykh al-Akbar, what—how should they approach the writing?

Dr Hany
The first thing if a person wants to read without a shaykh, reading Shaykh Ibn al-ʿArabī first you have to read it with a shaykh. A shaykh does not mean a scholar in fiqh; a shaykh who has attained fatḥ is a ‘ārif bil’lāh, a gnostic, a ‘ālim bil’lāh, and then he can, he or she can explain to the seeker so you have to accompany a shaykh and a shaykh gives you permission to read.

The first thing which people might read, begin reading, is the last chapter of the Futūḥāt and you can find it in a separate book, it's calledالوصايا (al-waṣāyā); al-waṣāyā where Shaykh Muḥyiddīn Ibn al-ʿArabī gives وصية (waṣiyya), to the seeker, spiritual seeker, advice to the seeker of God.

So to begin, read al-waṣāyā or the last chapter in the Futūḥāt al-Makkīyah; then when you find the shaykh, after the shaykh gives you permission to read then you can read the Futūḥāt or any books of Shaykh Muḥyiddīn because as I said, you might miss understand what he's saying. Like for example, I give examples also to my students: in his ديوان )Dīwān( the shaykh says, subḥānʾl-lāh [Chuckles] it's gone from my mind.

Saqib
Maybe it'll come.

Dr Hany
It’ll come, ʾinshāʾllāh.

Saqib
Sidi on that note, often with Orthodox, well, generally people who read him, who don't understand Ibn al-ʿArabī, will come with a certain mindset, which is already conditioned, he either gets misunderstood or like you said earlier on, labeled as a heretic, or you know, etcetera, etcetera; he is too difficult to read. So, why, what is it do you think in the Shaykh al-Akbar’s teachings or the way he explains that people call him a heretic or find him difficult, etcetera, etcetera.

Dr Hany
It came to me now, I remember.

Saqib
There you go! I knew—

Dr Hany
For example, he said, okay, ‘So, a person you can call him heretical when he reads this,’ for example, Shaykh Muḥyiddīn Ibn al-ʿArabī said, "بذكر الله تزداد الذنوب"—bidhikr l’lāhi tazdādu al-dhunūb, "وتمتص البصائر والقلوب"—watamtamiṣu al-baṣa’ir wal-qulūb, "وترك الذكر افضل منه"—watarka l-dhikr ’ahfḍal minhu, "فإن الشمس ليس لها غروب"—fa’in al-shamsa laysa lahā ghurūb, so he’s mentioned a person that says, ‘Oh by mentioning God, my sins here are increasing,’ [Chuckles] bidhikr l’lāhi tazdādu al-dhunūb; watamtamiṣu al-baṣa’ir wal-qulūb, and ‘The hearts and the insights are blackened’, watarka l-dhikr ’ahfḍal minhu and ‘Leaving dhikr is better,’ fa’in al-shamsa laysa lahā ghurūb, ‘Because the sun does not set.’ So someone reads this in particular and says, “Look, he’s a heretic!” He is speaking about something else.

He is speaking about a person who's mentioning dhikr, what is the goal, is it you mentioning God or is it God mentioning Himself on you? He has given you permission to mention Him; so you are making dhikr, but you think that you are mentioning God, okay? You are mentioning God. What is the goal of dhikr? There's a ḥadīth of the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ), he mentioned this ḥadīth qudsi, "أنا جليس من ذكرني"—anā jalīsu man dhakaranī, ‘I am seated,’ [Chuckles] ‘With those who are mentioning me’, anā jalīsu man dhakaranī, so mentioning God, you keep mentioning Him, in order that you witness Him, that the veil should be lifted by God’s permission; the heart, the veils on your heart are lifted so you can witness God. Okay? So, Sidi Muḥyiddīn Ibn al-ʿArabī is speaking about this! Like for example, you're in front of an apartment door, and you want to enter. The door is closed; you keep knocking on the door. So this is like dhikr. I'm knocking, [tack tack]: Allāh, Allāh, Allāh, Allāh, Allāh. You're mentioning this, but the door is not open, okay. So you keep mentioning it, until it opens. So, the door opens, what do you do? Do you still stand outside and keep knocking or do you enter?

So, dhikr, is a path to entering the presence of God. So he says here, we understand that now from this Pole, okay, bidhikr l’lāhi tazdādu al-dhunūb. So if the door opens, and you keep on knocking on the door, your insight and heart are black, you cannot see. Enter the presence, you stop mentioning dhikr, and witness God. So here it’s a sin; making dhikr while you're inside in the ḥadra, you don't have any sight! That's why ‘Leave dhikr.’ Why? Because the sun, the presence of God, never sets down. That is why a person needs a shaykh, a‘ārif bil’lāh, a gnostic, who has reached and understands what the other gnostic is trying to say.

Okay? So that was the example I wanted to give.

Saqib
Oh, perfect. So, so Sidi just on that note there was, I believe there's various stations, Shaykh Muḥyiddīn mentions, and then he talks about abandoning those stations, tark.

Dr Hany
[Laughs] Yes.

Saqib
So this is essentially going from the duality perspective to the non duality. So having توكل (tawakkul)—

Dr Hany
Yes—

Saqib
And then abandoning tawakkul. Yes.

Dr Hany
Yes, yes, you become the tool: وما يعلم جنود ربك إلا هو (wamā ya’lamu junūda rabbika illā huwa, Q74:31), no one knows the soldiers of God except Himself.

And this is present for example, in the Prophet Abraham when he was thrown into the pit of fire and the angel Gabriel (Jibrīl, جبريل) came and asked him, "لك عند الله حاجة"—laka ‘ind Allāhi ḥājah, ‘Did you want something from God?’ He said, "علمه بحالي يغني عن سؤالي"—‘ilmuhu biḥalī yughnīnī ‘an so’ālī, ‘Him knowing my state, is better than, and knows more than, me asking Him’. So you become the tool wherever, He puts you here, takes you there. Okay.

Also, Sayyidina al-Khidr, when he had broken the ship and he killed the young boy and built the wall, وما فعلته عن أمري (wamā fa’altuhu ‘an ’amrī, Q18:82), ‘I did not do it on my own accord.’ Okay. Also, from this, ثم أماته فأقبره (thumma amātahu fa’aqbarah Q80:21), so, God yes, people say he takes the spirit from the body,but what about ’aqbarah?; He is burying him; ثم اذا شاء انشره (thumma idha sha’a ’ansharahu), so He's doing the taqbīr. [Chuckles]

Saqib
So… [Pauses]

Dr Hany
So, the religion, the rituals in religion are merely corridors, pathways, in realizing and reaching this goal, and this goal is lā illāha illa l’lāh, there are no Gods except Allāh; and also I interpreted this, I mentioned it also in my book and in my thesis, lā illāha illa l’lāh from the Akbarian perspective, from the ‘ārif bil’lāh, from the gnostic perspective. If you, for example, witness someone in Hinduism, for example, prostrating down to a cow, I'm not saying this is the Islāmic path, but for the gnostic, the gnostic is witnessing Allāh worshiping Himself through this means; but this means, I'm not saying this is all paths lead to God, as people misunderstood Ibn al-ʿArabī and say that all the religions lead to one thing, no, it is for the gnostic. Any deity that is being worshipped on earth, lā illāha, it’s in Allāh Himself, but you cannot witness Him.

Saqib
So then, what is شرك (shirk) in Ibn al-ʿArabī’s perspective?

Dr Hany
[Chuckles] Shirk is veiled; veiled, that's why the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) says, you have to relate it to shari’a, that's what Muḥammad (ﷺ) said, "الشرك الخفي"—ash-shirk al-khafī, it’s called the ‘Veiled shirk’, the veil that you see yourself benefiting yourself, doing this action, yourself, you chose, I did not chose it; you are veiled. This is shirk; you benefit yourself, you benefit others.

It is only God who is manifesting in this form, using this form to benefit others. So people are veiled! Not seeing God, they are seeing themselves. That's why many people in the paths in the ṭurūq in the Ṣūfī (path) are veiled by their shuyoukh from seeing Allāh.

They are so immersed and attached to their paths, to the paths, and to their shuyoukh, more than Allāh.

Saqib
and by the way—

Dr Hany
That’s why, their good works, everything—this is shirk; shirk al-khafī as the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) said, this is shirk al-khafī. Okay? And there are many ḥadiths that talk about this; also, it's mentioned in the الصلاة المشيشية (as-ṣalat al-Mashīshīyya) by سيدي عبد السلام بن مشيش )Sidi ʻAbd al-Salām ibn Mashīsh(, when he says in the ṣalat al-Mashashiyya" "واجعل الحجاب الاعظم, and ‘Make the greatest veil,’; the greatest veil here is the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ). People are sometimes veiled by the beauty and perfection of the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) from seeing Allāh, يد الله فوق ايديهم ان الذين يبايعونك انما يبايعون الله (inna al-ladhīna yubāyi‘ūnaka innamā yubāyi‘ūna l-lāha yadu l- lāhi fawqa ’aydhīhim, Q48:10), those who make an oath of allegiance with you are making an oath of allegiance with Allāh.

So a person can be veiled as I said by his or her good actions, his good deeds, can be veiled by the shaykh of the ṭarīqa, can be veiled by the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ). The Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) is the path for reaching Allāh, okay, then that gnostic becomes the perfect manifestation of the Muḥammadan reality in seeing God. So it's only the Muḥammadan Light that sees and witnesses God. So God manifests Himself on the Nūr al-Muḥammadi, okay, it's not even the gnostic. Okay? It's the Nūr al-Muḥammadi that witnesses and sees, sees God. God sees Himself through this manifestation, the first emanation of the Muḥammaddan Light.

Saqib
[Pauses] and this principle ofإن الله وملائكته يصلون على النبي (inna Allāha wa-malāikatahu yu’ṣallūna ‘alā an-nabiyi, Q33:56)—

Dr Hany
Yes.

Saqib
ياأيها الذين آمنوا صلوا عليه وسلموا تسميما (yā ayūhā ladhīna āmanū ṣallū ‘alayhi wa-salimū taslīman, Q33:56).

Dr Hany
Yes.

Saqib
Allāh and the angels sent the salutations preys on the Prophet (ﷺ). Could you explain that, and in Ibn al-ʿArabī’s perspective? And also, when you mentioned that داوود (dawūd) that if there is a seeker who hasn't found a shaykh and then making ṣalawāt, obviously there's a big emphasis on this action of making ṣalawāt ‘ala an-nabiyy but also Allāh making ṣalawat on the nabiyy—

Dr Hany
Exactly.

Saqib
And the angels—

Dr Hany
Yes.

Saqib
Making ṣalawāt on the nabiyy; so what's going on here?

Dr Hany
Yes, okay. [Chuckles]

Saqib
What is this dynamic?

Dr Hany
The Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ), he said, "الصلاة علي نور"—as-ṣalātu ‘alayy nūr, ‘Ṣalāt on me is light.’ So what is the use of light? It shows you; it's the path that shows. So there are three levels, also again, in the ṣalawat on the Prophet.

So, there is the ṣalāt commanded, yā ayūhā ladhīna āmanū ṣallū ‘alayhi wa-salimū. Did he say the Muslims? He did not say the Muslims even though the muslimūn make salutations on the Prophet (ﷺ) in their ṣalāt, even if they don't like it [Laughs] in theتحيات (taḥiyāt), but only the mu’minūn who are given, commanded by God to make ṣalawāt, yā ayūhā ladhīna āmanū ṣallū ‘alayhi wa-salimū taslīman. Okay?

So the first, for all creation to make ṣalāt on him; the second is the ḥaqqiqa al-Muḥammadiyya the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) making salutations on himself, the Nūr al-Muḥammadi is making ṣalawāt on himself and then finally, Allāh is making ṣalawāt on the Prophet (ﷺ), inna Allāha wa-malāikatahu yu’ṣallūna ‘alā an-nabiyi.

So there are three levels also of ma’rifa. The first, the mu’minūn making ṣalawāt on him. So I see myself as a mu’min and making ṣalawāt on the Prophet (ﷺ). Then when the person transcends, he becomes or she becomes and realizes the Muḥammadiyyan Light, it is Muḥammad (ﷺ) making ṣalawāt on himself. Okay? And this is mentioned, okay, didn't he mention make taḥiyāt on himself, as-salāmu ‘alaykum ya ayyuha l-nabiyy [Laughs] wa-rahmatu l-lāhi, and when he entered the mosque [Laughs] there’s theدعاء دخول المسجد (du’ā dukhūl al-masjid), well he's making ṣalawāt on himself, so this is another level. The third level is the state of annihilation, when Allāh is making ṣalawāt on the first manifestation or the first emanation on that Muḥammadiyyan Light.

The scholars have explained that the mu’minūn are making du’ā, supplications on the Prophet (ﷺ), the angels are making praise to increase the level of the stations of the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ), and Allāh is praising that Muḥammadiyyan Light or is praising His first emanation of light, which made all creation appear because all creation, as Sidi Muḥyiddīn Ibn al-ʿArabī says,التعينات (al-ta’ayunāt), the first creation, are inside the knowledge of God, fi ‘ilm Allāh, and in order for them to appear, God sheds the first emanation, who is light, an-nūr, the nūr of the Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ) and made everything in existence appear through that light. For example, you have a room plenty with furniture, but the room is dark. So creation is like the furniture inside this room. It exists, ta’ayunāt, or المظاهر (al-maẓahir), okay. So you have a desk, you have a bed, you have a cabinet, it's there, but you cannot see it because it's dark, it's unnoticed in darkness, in the knowledge of God. So how do I make it appear? By switching on the light. Switching on the light. So this light is the Muḥammadiyyan Light, which made everything in existence appears.

Saqib
Subḥānʾl-lāh.

Dr Hany
Yeah.

Saqib
Sidi, could you say something about Shaykh Muḥyiddīn Ibn al-ʿArabī’s approach to, I don't want use the word interpretation, but his approach to understanding the Qur’ān and ḥadīth. Needless to say—

Dr Hany
Yes.

Saqib
One of the things that I just want to add that really drew me to Ibn al-ʿArabī was nearly on every second line, there's Qur’ān or ḥadīth.

Dr Hany
Yes.

Saqib
Every, every—again, and again, but he's able to take the literal meaning, or the vowels or the grammatical nuances and extrapolate the highest metaphysical truths, or esoteric meanings within the exoteric. I mean, it's just mind boggling.

Dr Hany
[Chuckles] Yes.

Saqib
I mean, he does that again and again and again.

Dr Hany
Yes.

Saqib
And so he never deviates from the literal. He never says this is the only, you know, perspective, and it is this. But he somehow is so encompassing. It's very—it's very merciful, his whole approach to his own perspective and the example that comes to mind is from سورة البقرة (surah al-Baqarah), where the verse on the kāfirs, صم بكم عمي فهم لا يرجعون (ṣummun buk'mun ʿum'yun fahum lā yarjiʿūna Q2:18).

Dr Hany
Yes.

Saqib
Allāh has sealed their hearing and sight etcetera. So Ibn al-ʿArabī is saying that these are not just literally the kāfirs but also—

Dr Hany
Yes.

Saqib
The highest state of the ‘awliyā who, kafara, as in they've covered—

Dr Hany
Yes.

Saqib
Their station from people.

Dr Hany
Yes, الملامتية (al-malāmatiyya), yes.

Saqib
Yes, and no matter what you do, you can't reach them because they see and hear nothing, Allāh has put His stamp on their hearts.

Dr Hany
Exactly.

Saqib
They see nothing but God.

Dr Hany
Exactly.

Saqib
So yes, how does he, where does he take this from? Has he learned this from; is this done before him? And what I mean, it's a really amazing, you know, approach he has, to take the literal; yet he's more literal than a literalist in many ways.

Dr Hany
Exactly.

Saqib
Yet—

Dr Hany
Okay.

Saqib
He has the highest universal metaphysical truth within that literalism, I mean, it's really amazing, the more you get into it. So could you say something about that, please?

Dr Hany
Yes, Sidi Muḥyiddīn. Allāh, one of the the names of Allāh is the Apparent and He is the Inner, he is الظاهر (ad-Dhāhir) and الباطن (al-Bāṭin). So the Qur’ān, people read it from the apparent, from the dhāhir perspective, but it has a hidden, an inner sight, inner perspective. Why? Because it's a manifestation, it is كلام الله (kalām Allāh), the literal word of God, so it has many meanings. That's why Sidi Muḥyiddīn he mentioned, he said, ‘If you want to open the different meanings of the Qur’ān, and all of these meanings are correct, you must approach it through the language, decipher the language of Arabic, which God chose to be the language of the Qur’ān.’

So, deciphering; so, for example, if you interpret a particular word and examine it, its root, it's etymology, every meaning that comes out from the Arabic analysis and examination of the words is correct.

So you are not inputting meanings of your beliefs on the scripture as we see many people, okay, or many scholars and also some scholars, for example, make, an interpretation, an explanation of the Qur’ān, tafsīr, from different perspectives, al-Zamakhsharī tafsīr from the grammatical perspective, but Sidi Muḥyiddīn said, ‘If you interpret the Qur’ān from the perspective of language and the roots of every words, every meaning is correct and every meaning is intended by God.’ So, you have endless meanings but only through the perspective of the Qur’ān.

Also, Ibn al-ʿArabī was not, as I said, not the first to speak about tawḥīd or the Oneness of Being or this concept of examining analyzing the Qur’ān or interpreting it, but people, many ‘awliyā, and many scholars before him; and you can read this for example, something that comes to my mind, Shaykh Abū Ḥassan ash-Shādhulī when he explained or interpreted قاتلوا الذين يلونكم من الكفار وليجدوا فيكم غلظة (qātilū al-ladhina yulūnakum min al-kufār waliyajidū fīkum ghilẓa, Q9:123), so he said, ‘Yes it has both, an exterior explanation and an interior interpretation.’ So, Shaykh Sidi Abū Ḥassan ash-Shādhulī he said, " الذين يلونكم"—al-ladhina yulūnakum, ‘Those who are close to you from the kuffār or the cover is your nafs,’ is your nafs, so it is the correct meaning, okay? As long as it is within the boundaries of Arabic; the Arabic language of the Qur’ān, and as you said, kuffār here comes from the word to cover, cover something up.

Also, I remember something, al-Ḥallaj, it’s like a form of fatḥiyāt when he said, "كفرت بدين الله والكفر واجب عليّ وعند المسلمين قبيحُ" —kafartu bidīn l-lāh wal kufru wājiban ‘alayya wa’inda al-muslimīn qubḥu, he’s speaking about something else. Kafartu bidīn l-lāh, I covered my beliefs about the One, the oneness of God, and kufr here from the sense is understood by the general Muslims or the majority of Muslims as being heretic.

So, kafartu bidīn l-lāh, I covered and held it inside me. [Chuckles]

Saqib
Sidi, thank you so much. You’ve exhausted my questions and for now I think, al-ḥamdulil’llāh, for this session, I would like to bring it to a close and I am very grateful for your time and insha’Allah I look forward to many more sessions with you.

Dr Hany
Thank you very much. It has been my honor and please feel free to contact me anytime you’d like.

Saqib
Bāraka l-lāhu fīk.